tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post8271397195213430833..comments2023-12-28T09:21:30.579-05:00Comments on Adam Holland: Hungarian fascists reduxAdam Hollandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06245468599571473818noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-25302603359645812552009-10-11T22:42:32.362-04:002009-10-11T22:42:32.362-04:00So if there are so many innacuracies in the articl...So if there are so many innacuracies in the article, why are you unable to cite one?Adam Hollandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245468599571473818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-79208671247514333482009-10-11T20:39:08.580-04:002009-10-11T20:39:08.580-04:00This blog must be a joke. It can't be serious....This blog must be a joke. It can't be serious. I didn't see so much lies in 1 article.<br />So tiny blog, so much lies.<br />Pathetic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-36960799455449868382009-07-15T21:49:28.944-04:002009-07-15T21:49:28.944-04:00Thrasymachus:
The facts speak for themselves. Th...Thrasymachus:<br /><br />The facts speak for themselves. The real question isn't whether Jobbik is fascist, advocates violence and bigotry, and is destructive to democracy. The question is how anyone can argue the contrary with a straight face. They themselves don't claim to be non-violent. They don't claim to oppose bigotry. They don't claim to support democracy. How can you make such claims with a straight face? <br /><br />Your arguments in support of Jobbik and the Magyar Garda are flagrant attempts to distort the record. I would expect no better from someone who believes as you do.Adam Hollandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245468599571473818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-88270516802565415662009-07-15T21:24:37.909-04:002009-07-15T21:24:37.909-04:00Read this .Read <a href="http://www.bosnewslife.com/8244-hungarys-orthodox-jews-fear-extremist-attacks-special-feature" rel="nofollow"> this </a>.Adam Hollandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245468599571473818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-27214601382841304222009-07-15T21:23:45.646-04:002009-07-15T21:23:45.646-04:00"You're upset that their records are beco..."You're upset that their records are becoming public outside of Hungary."<br /><br />If anything pal, you've come about 2 years too late to the party.<br /><br />Roma pogroms?? Huh? Again your regurgitated assumptions have <b>no</b> basis in fact. Every time one of these supposed acts of anti-Roma violence has resulted in an arrest the perpetrator has turned out to be a Roma. Every. Time. The cause for all the violence is not racism, but inter-Roma loan sharking. Again. You don't have a blithering clue. You have no primary evidentiary source material to draw on. You've just been given a set of dots and have dutifully joined them up like a good little boy: as you were intended to.<br /><br />I’m sure you’re well intentioned, but to anyone with an actual inkling about the nation’s affairs you just come across as a bit of a tit who hasn’t got a clue about what they’re talking about. And you reveal this most tellingly here: “They [Jobbik] proudly proclaim their hatred of Jews and Roma and defend their bigotry as being in the national interest of Hungary.”<br /><br />The sad fact is, that national survey after national survey have shown these views to be <i>pervasive</i> in Hungarian society. They’re no respecter of political persuasion, or education, class or wealth. They’re not confined to that one party, they’re everywhere and in all parties, and the majority of Hungarians. (no that isn’t an excuse, but it puts a slightly different spin on things doesn’t it?) <br /><br />Try and understand, the internal attempts to curtail the nationalist movement have nothing to do with your socio-liberal allies currently in charge “fighting the good fight.” They are only socio-liberals because that’s the way the wind is currently blowing. (And are just as hatefully bigoted behind closed doors – that’s just a Magyar for you.) When ten years ago it blew from Washnigton, that’s what they nodded along to. And when it blew from Moscow 20 years ago, they did precisely the same. When they issue condemnations, they’re intended for your ears, not the ears of their countrymen. It’s all about power, and keeping your hand in the nation’s till.<br /><br />"You have absolutely nothing of value to say in rebuttal to the very obvious bigotry of Jobbik and their supporters." <br /><br />And you have absolutely nothing of value to add if all you are doing is repeating the allegations made in a hundred other places elsewhere, based on bogus evidence, without even a scintilla of accurate on-the-ground fact to call upon to support your own hysteria.Thrasymachushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17208581248991050870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-24430939747672003962009-07-15T21:21:03.064-04:002009-07-15T21:21:03.064-04:00I have neither the time, nor the inclination, to r...I have neither the time, nor the inclination, to rebutt you in prose. So as many points as I can be bothered to, I think. I really have never seen a length of text so wrong headed in every regard from opinion through to “fact.” You seem obsessed, with being perishingly naive, provided you can of course maintain your distorted picture; and feel you’ve done right by your own sanctimonious ideology.<br /><br />Really, you are being unbelievably silly right from the start.<br /><br />"The inroads made by fascists into the Hungarian mainstream should scare those who are concerned about democracy and human rights in Europe. In opposition to those who expose their wrongdoing, these fascists tend to make outrageous charges of communism, corruption and conspiracy against those who would dare even to quote them when the quotes shine a less than flattering light. That is precisely your technique."<br /><br />This is all very good stuff. But it's rhetoric. And not one bit of it is based in fact. Look up "fascism" in your dictionary, again, this is not what is happening. Please tell me until you are blue in the face, that it is, and how many others agree with you. I will always simply have the OED on my side. That makes me right, and you wrong. And if you knew anything about Communism you'd know that the reflex response of any argument from the right is to call it fascist.<br /><br />"Charges of communism"? The current regime are all formerly avowed communists. From the first to the last. The Hungarian Communist Party was called the MSZMP. They just removed the M for Munkás (worker). And are now the MSZP. Again. The ruling MSZP’S symbol is the carnation. The Hungarian for carnation is szeg-fű – nail grass. What do you use to strike a nail, with what hand tool do you cut grass with? This was the ever so subtle coded rebranding. You simply haven't the vaguest idea what you're talking about. And reading websites doesn't change that, matey.<br /><br />"Outrageous charges of corruption and conspiracy" this is where you take leave of planet fact once and for all. And it really is such an insult to every hardworking Hungarian tax payer who's been diddled rotten for 20 years. Imagine a regime, in which the Finance Minister received an enormous consulting wage while in government, to advise multi-nationals in how to avoid his own tax regime. I kid you not. And that’s just the tip of a catastrophically enormous iceberg. <br /><br />Regarding Ms Balogh. I assert what I do because I know what I am talking about. Repeating what other bloggers say is more your bag. My father was imprisoned and tortured by the Communist secret police in Budapest after 56, and knew the names of those whose credentials passed muster and whose did not. Anyway. I can only ask you to read, not her posts, but the fastidious way she avoids answering criticisms which rebut her case (when she can, like you, bear to tolerate such comment – “go peddle that BS at a fascist rally” – priceless, did that make you feel all big and special?); and prefers the ad hominem when cornered, as you do.<br /><br />Regarding googleing the "Magyar Gárda" I don't care if a million sites say they are paramilitary. Look up what paramilitary <b>means</b>, in a dictionary. I suppose if enough people thought the earth was flat... The reason why so many journos use it is not because it is true, but because it is juicy; or that it fits their ideological point of view and the facts be damned. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.Thrasymachushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17208581248991050870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-3047552112356158562009-07-15T21:19:55.217-04:002009-07-15T21:19:55.217-04:00Thrasymachus:
The inroads made by fascists into t...Thrasymachus:<br /><br />The inroads made by fascists into the Hungarian mainstream should scare those who are concerned about democracy and human rights in Europe. In opposition to those who expose their wrongdoing, these fascists tend to make outrageous charges of communism, corruption and conspiracy against those who would dare even to quote them when the quotes shine a less than flattering light. That is precisely your technique.<br /><br />You throw a lot of charges around in your comment. Did I step on your toes? Apparently you're displeased that I revealed, through direct quotes, the disgraceful nature of the group you support. You're upset that their records are becoming public outside of Hungary. In response, you question the "extremely powerful motives" behind my revealing this information. Exactly what motives do you infer for my post, other than a desire to reveal that bigots and fascists are gaining a degree of power in Hungary, and a desire to prevent an application of a veneer of legitimacy to their fascism? Do you believe that your friends are the victims of some sort of conspiracy? That, along with declarations of patriotism, are the last refuges of scoundrels of the far-right. <br /><br />Moreover, your baseless slanders of Eva Balogh speak for themselves. She's a red because, you assert, some unnamed bloggers say so. You bizarrely also blame Ms. Balogh for the international media and, presumably, the Hungarian courts, referring to the Magyar Garda as a paramilitary. The simple fact is that everyone other than those with a vested interest in distorting the truth knows that is precisely what they are. You're convincing nobody with your claim that they're actually boy scouts -- total sweethearts! Ignore the pogroms against Roma, the arsons of Roma homes, the attacks on integrated schools, the murders of a Roma man and his child. Ignore the defenses of anti-Semitism, the calls to expel Jews, the blaming of Jews, Roma and "foreigners" for economic troubles. You really ask a lot of us. You'd have us believe complete your utter distortions and ignore the plain truth. <br /><br />So -- back to Eva Balogh -- how is she to blame for the Magyar Garda being called paramilitary by the media? Try googling "Magyar Garda" and paramilitary. You must believe that your imaginary conspiracy of communist sleeper cells is pretty powerful based on the 6,700 hits that gets. Is the entire world except for Jobbik supporters part of this conspiracy? And is Eva Balogh somehow at the head of this army of sleeper cells? How absurd!<br /><br />You have absolutely nothing of value to say in rebuttal to the very obvious bigotry of Jobbik and their supporters. How could you? They proudly proclaim their hatred of Jews and Roma and defend their bigotry as being in the national interest of Hungary. Your only defense is that Morvai, according to you, was married to a Jew. I have no idea of her ex-husband's background, but I do know for certain that it says nothing about her anti-Jewish and anti-Roma agenda and rhetoric.<br /><br />In case anyone think we're talking about a small group of people making politically incorrect comments about minorities, let's set the record straight. Jobbik and their allies are violent fascists. They pose a real threat to innocent Roma and Jews in Hungary. They pose a threat to democratic institutions. They are obviously not above slandering those who oppose them, much as you have done in your comment. The only difference is that, when a mass movement makes the sort of baseless charges you make, they do so with an implicit threat to punish those who would expose them for what they are. <br /><br />That stuff won't work here Thrasymachus. Go peddle that BS at a fascist rally.<br /><br />You can lower your right arm now.Adam Hollandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245468599571473818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-534406745336158092009-07-15T19:51:09.286-04:002009-07-15T19:51:09.286-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Adam Hollandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245468599571473818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-63756260795194512282009-07-15T14:51:56.721-04:002009-07-15T14:51:56.721-04:00cont'd...
Can you imagine how many red faces ...cont'd...<br /><br />Can you imagine how many red faces there were at the likes of Bloomberg and Reuters when Hungary shocked everyone by needing to go to the IMF? Fooled them right proper. The Channel 4 reporter would be shame faced too, if she’d let Dr Morvai carry on about the staggering human-rights abuses by the Hungarian state, but it was edited out wasn’t it? At - 01:47 - it’s really quite jarring. Because then people would legitimately ask, hey, why the hell didn’t you report <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9lFFcNRgoE" rel="nofollow">all of this stuff </a> when it was happening for the past decade.<br /><br />There’s a lot more going on here than meets the eye. That’s all that I want you to understand.<br /><br />By the by, those who would paint Jobbik as Neo-Nazis and Morvai as Eva Braun always omit to mention that in her human rights lawyer role (she’s also a law Professor at the country’s top Uni.) she supported gay rights cases, and the those gorgeously politically expedient allegations of anti-Semitism (which she thinks beneath her to deny) always omit to mention that she was married to and had two children by a Jew. Don’t they? Can you believe the impression that Ch4 story wanted to make you leave with, <b>omitted</b> that fact? Breathtaking! Isn’t it?<br /><br />So what do you need to know about Jobbik that none of these sources will tell you? First, Jobbik is the chief threat (15%) to the party that represents this establishment (the MSZP at 17%). Second, Jobbik is the only party that is manifesto dedicated to prosecuting these people should it ever come to power.<br /><br />Any compelling motives for distorting the facts now emerging?<br /><br />I really admire your desire to be well-researched, but try and appreciate that the picture you have has been viewing and commenting on has been quite deliberately and painstakingly generated: for your benefit. The post-Communist elite wield the monopoly on all terrestrial TV stations and nearly all daily publications, and always have. They are perfectly aware at how much more distracted external observers will be if they portray the lie that contemporary events in Hungary have something to do with the 20 years from 1925-1945 rather than events in Hungary for the two decades between 1989-2009. Which seems more plausible? In fact if you think about it for a minute, your common sense compels you to consider the prevailing Western media view as absurd, doesn’t it?<br /> <br />And yet the former picture wins out, in which people are made to focus on the symptoms rather than the cause, and this is deliberately intended. Balance and crucial information that could be provided by alternate Hungarian sources (e.g. Magyar Hírlap, Hír TV, Echo TV – both satellite) are linguistically hamstrung. They simply do not have any English language reach, in which, again, the state has a monopoly.<br /><br />If you think me paranoid, mull this over: <i>the business of deliberately distorting the national information flow for foreign eyes: is the key fundamental of Hungarian political survival</i>. It’s learned osmotically like how UK politicians learn Bagehot. It’s what these people do, and how they survived (by keeping Moscow sweet) the 40+ years of Communism.<br /><br />Thank you for your time.Thrasymachushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17208581248991050870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4718120950252476804.post-4088907726534873452009-07-15T14:51:36.539-04:002009-07-15T14:51:36.539-04:00Ooh, now where to begin?
Ok. Don’t believe everyt...Ooh, now where to begin?<br /><br />Ok. Don’t believe everything that you read. Please accept that there could also be extremely powerful motives for the promotion of this picture of events. A lot of vested Hungarian interests have a lot to gain by it.<br /><br />I don’t have enough time/room to make this case by critiquing all of your sources, so I’ll cherry pick the most glaring examples. First, the delightful Eva S. Balogh and her misleadingly titled “Hungarian Spectrum” blog, with all its pretentions to objectivity. Ms Balogh paints herself as a dispassionate former 56 revolutionary with a PhD from Yale. In fact, read the comments to her blog posts, and judge for yourself how she singularly evades certain types of questioning, and a different picture emerges. She is an unreconstructed Communist. The Hungarian government also sent out sleepers during the 56 exodus, and you should know that she couldn’t directly gain entry to the US, but had to sneak in through Canada. She is called “Red” Eva amongst Hungarian bloggers. I kid you not. It’s all very subtle, a misleading comment here, a historical distortion there. Example?<br /><br />The Magyar Gárda is called Jobbik’s “paramilitary” wing. Why? Because all English language news sources use this word. But look the word up. Adjunct of military. The MG isn’t armed, hasn’t broken a single law for its two years of operation. It consists of fat men marching and wearing waistcoats and waving flags. Look. Look deep. That’s all it’s done. That’s all it’s ever done. Why is this essentially tubby, over-the-hill scout movement bigged up so absurdly? Doubt me? Look at the impression deliberately generated by the first minutes of the Channel 4 piece. You’re supposed to think of some kind of Chilean death squad, aren’t you? “This is not Germany in the 1930s...” But it’s not convincing is it? The out-of-time step and the bloke in the near row checking his watch. Yes there are nutty and disturbing fringes to the nationalist movement, but they don’t represent its mainstream. Obviously, I can’t convince you without resorting to hearsay upon hearsay, so let’s look at something we can both consult and confirm.<br /> <br />Namely, the more direct pieces of churnalism. Lump together the LA Times, The Budapest Times, and Politics.hu articles. You’d think the last two are based in Hungary wouldn’t you? Nope they’re all based in the US. So where do they get their info from? Go back to the original Politics.hu article you quoted and notice the words “by MTI” underneath the title of the piece. MTI is the Hungarian state wire service. You see, these sites don’t do actual reporting; they don’t even question: they just gain advertising revenue by regurgitating the state wire service and other website messages - verbatim. There’s also a lot of cross ownership here. In fact the person who runs Politics.hu also runs Politcal Pest and Xpatloop and The Budapest Times; from New York. (read Vándorlós comments to <a href="http://www.politics.hu/20090715/analysts-say-ban-on-magyar-garda-has-risks-for-jobbik#c17" rel="nofollow">this politics.hu article </a> to confirm)<br /><br />And no, the state wire service cannot be trusted. So what’s going on here? Well, Hungary has been run by the same post-Communist kleptocracy for the past 20 years. They’ve bankrupted the nation while enriching themselves: it’s that straightforward. Furthermore they were smart enough to dress themselves in socio-liberal sheep’s clothing to make their activities immune from too prying external international media eyes.Thrasymachushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17208581248991050870noreply@blogger.com